Jazz Vocabulary?

[Henry II]

The closest thing to straight ahead jazz that I've ever heard Vinnie play was that TV theme CD, Unreel. Can someone name me any examples of Vinnie playing straight ahead?

[got_a_matchgrip]

This conversation is jazz.

Loud [n'angry] Acid Jazz from Hell to be exact. [Think Sco meets Zap meets...a**id...]

To say someone isn't "jazz" can be a misnomer.
To say someone does or does not necessarily reflect the trad-bop language idiom time-period is another thing altogether.

The point gets to, where do we begin to "draw the Line" in the sand about when we start or stop calling something officially "jazz?"...after the be-bop era? Or before that? WHEN did it REALLY become WORTHY of being given the title, "JAZZ?!"

Tony had his own thing. He took it somewhere else. I'm sure a thousand peeps ATT called him non-jazz or unorthodox. But the fact remains that the end result is that he changed the course of drumming prob almost more than ANY drummer b4 him simply because he was so fresh, raw, powerful, exciting, & played with such passion. But I would never remark, "he wasn't 'jazz.'" Maybe not a certain stylistic or foundational requirement for 'jazz,' but i wouldn't say "not jazz." We're too far out from those periods anymore, with more hindsight, & need to be a little more specif when describing or explaining.

The initial sentiment & argument results from semantics & rhetoric rather than a specific idea of merit, due to the wording of the initial idea.

There are "words," "phrases," & motifs indicative of any musically stylistic idiom. The argument gets started because of the way certain ideologies are ambiguously worded. We should be describing time periods [mile-markers in the evolution] instead of the all-encompassing word of "jazz," which to me is a very broad term, albeit indeed rooted in some fundamentals of stylistically specific musical language, but has long since become a very vast spectrum of in-the-moment musical communication, altho still stemming from the roots, if you will.

Some people don't know exactly where the term heralds from or what it entails exactly, & then further, many aren't quite sure what others are referring to when they use the term.

True, Vinnie isn't speaking mostly out of that specified era's language [which is sometimes or often considered "the founding or formative jazz era"], but then again no one can dispute that he is one of the most profound exponents of the drumset to date, BECAUSE he is so unique, as was Tony. I hear thousands of guys playing authentic trad bop era jazz, but [& not counting the clones,] I only hear one Weckl, AWA Vinnie, or Tony, which is largely where Vin "came from," & he makes no apology for this [nor should he]. Again, not that anyone here was asking him to, either.

He fully understands song form [this is very important, & i realize no one is disputing this], & can play it his way over whatever the hell he wants to, & well.

It is clear we should be more specific when we discuss what it is we are saying, as some folks may not be on the same wavelength. I think we've all long now understand both sides of this coin. And both are true AWA okay.

But when it becomes snobbery, or 'elevated' to a mantle, mantra, or holy grail status, then it becomes a bit wearisome, to say the least. But again, there's also nothing wrong with understanding a style's roots or further evolutionary stages.

We've already beaten AWA "muder-ated" this poor horse [not nec in that order]. Now, what i meant by "muder-ated" is....[another new long semantical/rhetorical debate]...

You see, the 6th commandment is, "you shall not 'murder,'" NOT the word 'kill,' as has been so erroneously reported in these later translations. The two CAN mean two completely different things via the law under the right scenario. Muder is criminal homicide, meaning intent, such as in 'premeditated,' etc. But you can 'kill' the hell outta anyone breaking into your home in the middle of the night while your wife & kids are asleep. THIS is not 'murder.' Get my drift?

Did anyone see where i left my bus ticket?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 09, 2005 01:50 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

[Don Worth]

That explanation sounds like some band director that is trying to explain what groove is and cannot do that either. Maybe we should define what jazz is........looks like the only jazz we may consider is Be-Bop. At one time Chick Webb was jazz, but we do not play four on the floor anymore. JAzz was one thing to some people in the 50's then those pesky Be bop players.......CHANGED,,,,,,,that is the magic work, change and progression. Ever player you mention has moved jazz somewere else and are not still playing OLD jazz as say Louis Armstrong. Funny how jazz is not able to progres past what Charlie Parker, Coltrane and the rest started and move onto another higher level. Nope, we must play jazz like the dead guys played it. I think we have landed on the moon since Charlie Parker played jazz and have faster airplanes, but lets not change JAZZ (be-bop). There is the other side of the coin that does not think that BE BOP is jazz and is played to fast and only for musicians. Ranting this morning,,,,,,,

[Flarobstix]

Thank you. The only time I insult anyone in here is after I'm insulted by them. Opinions and facts should be welcome. If you can't state yours adequately and have to resort to lewd comments, then I agree, banned.

[Don Worth]

Flarob's explanation, match grip was not there before I got my post up.

[got_a_matchgrip]

Ranting this morning

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...albeit a decent one, at that... [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

[Flarobstix]

Don, how do you know what I can play or cannot?
First of all, you're 100% wrong on four on the floor. EVERYONE who plays jazz feathers the bass drum in 4/4 swing time. Tony did it CONSTANTLY in both feet. Man..people speak without knowing a damn thing. WHO DOESN'T feather the bass drum?
And the topic is what is jazz language, not what can or can not be considered jazz.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 09, 2005 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]</font>

[got_a_matchgrip]

Sounds like semantics & rhetoric confusion again.

Each guy knows what he himself is saying, but there's...oh forget it, it's pointless.

Children, Time Out...Let it go already for crimony's sake.

The CCEB is is not 'jazz' per se; it is "'contemporary' or 'post-modern' jazz fusion" coming from the jazz idiom...there. That's more specific.

An apple is not an orange, but they are BOTH still in the fruit family. [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

[Or should I have said, "raisins-to-grapes," or, "prunes to dates?"] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 09, 2005 02:04 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

[Don Worth]

And the topic is what is jazz language, not what can or can not be considered jazz

Well, I figure you better define what jazz is first then you can discuss the language. That is like comparing Chuck Berry to Limp Bisquit in Rock. I doubt many Chuck Berry fans find Limp to be Rock in there minds. When Chick Webb played 4 on the floor it was a lot more than feathered. There is a lot of times that the BD is not played 4 to the beat.

[Randy walker]

OK guys, the slinging is getting a tad out of hand and probably making a few of our more celebrated HOD members cause to stay out of site.
So, please let's keep the jabs from being personal and move forward.